Showing posts with label Chris Pronger. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Chris Pronger. Show all posts

29 June 2009

Chris Pronger is a Flyer, but didn't need to be

The big news lately around the NHL (aside from the buildup for July 1) is the Chris Pronger trade from Anaheim to Philadelphia. The deal was Chris Pronger & Ryan Dingle from Anaheim to Philadelphia for Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa, 2 first round draft picks, and a conditional 3rd round pick in 2010 or 2011. Its a pretty hefty price for Pronger, and I don't think anyone can say that the Ducks didn't get enough in exchange. It was a good return for the trade. On the Flyers end of it, if Pronger walks at the end of this season, then I would say they overpaid, but not terribly. If Pronger resigns with the team, then it was a good deal.

Despite the big price tag, Chris Pronger is undoubtedly one of the top defensemen in the league. I can't think of anyone I would hate to see on an opposing blueline more than Pronger, especially come playoff time. In the Eastern Conference, where defense is secondary to offense, and superstars like Crosby, Malkin, and Ovechkin are allowed to drive to the net relentlessly, Pronger will be even more valuable. He makes sure that getting to his net isn't easy, that you have to pay the toll in sweat (and maybe some blood) to get there. I can think of a couple stars who could be in for a rude awakening when they play the Flyers next.

However, all that said, if Pronger was willing to resign with the Ducks and work out an extension before next summer, then I don't like this deal so much from the Ducks' perspective. Chris Pronger will be 35 this fall, meaning (as I understand it at least) that any new contract he signs will be subject to the guarantees that come with signing a player over 35. This would help keep his price down a little, as no one wants to be stuck with an immovable contract for an injured defenseman (hey, the Flyers would know about that!). Also, given that he would enter free agency in either the second year of an unmoving salary cap, or even a decreasing one, there would be less available money to be offered to him, and bidding wars would be somewhat tempered.

Chris Pronger's current deal has him counting for 6.250M/yr cap hits. He peaked with some absolutely stellar playoff runs in 2006 (Oilers) and 2007 (Ducks). That already gives him the 9th highest 09/10 cap hit amongst defensemen (obviously pending the events of this year's free agent period). Combined with the above issues (less to spend, Pronger being over 35), I don't think its unreasonable that he could've been resigned for 6M or so per year, and we can stick with 6.25M to be generous. I'd give him a 4 or 5 year deal (taking him to age 39 or 40) for about a 6M cap hit per year. Again, this is all assuming he was willing to resign with the Ducks.

The issue that precipitated this trade was the decision to return to the Ducks by Scott Niedermayer. Niedermayer will be 36 this fall, and he has spent the last few years trying to decide if he wants to retire or not, continuing to resign in one year increments. There has been tons of speculation that the main reason he has stuck around this long is to play in the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver. After that, its entirely likely he rides off into the sunset. Without any sort of multi-year committment from Niedermayer, it could be just one year until the Ducks, who've had great success behind a couple of Norris winning defensemen, find themselves without any Norris winners on their blueline at all.

Given the choice between continuing to reup on a year to year basis (and the inability to plan ahead going forward because of it) with Scott Niedermayer, or being able to retain Pronger until he's 40 or close to it, I don't see how the decision couldn't go in Pronger's favor. Sure, Niedermayer is a great defenseman, but if you're an opposing forward, is there anyone you'd want to face least other than Chris Pronger? If nothing else, you can call the two even in terms of defensive ability and what they bring to the table, and then the question is simply whether or not to keep Niedermayer on a year to year basis, or to sign Pronger for a longer term. One of these gives you the ability to plan ahead, knowing that 30 of a possible 120 minutes a night on defense are already going to be covered for the next several years, and one of them doesn't tell you anything beyond the next year.

To hear the Ducks tell it, the biggest issue here was money, namely that they didn't want to commit 12M to two of the best defensemen in the league, as they have the last few years. I would have an easier time buying this if Joffrey Lupul hadn't been a part of the return for Pronger. Lupul is now the third highest paid forward on the Ducks, with a 4.25M/yr cap hit, and he's never scored more than 56 points in an NHL season. If you take his 2007-08 Flyers season (56 GP, 20-26-46) and extrapolate that out over a full 82 game season, you at least get 67 points, which is better, but still not great, especially when he has yet to be able to replicate such a result. The Ducks could've spent an extra ~2M and instead locked up one of the best defensemen in the league, and told Niedermayer to take less money (like maybe Lupul's 4.25M) or let him walk, and I think they'd have been ahead than where they are now.

EDIT: It appears the Ducks are already attempting to trade Giguere, as he has put together a short list of teams he'd find acceptable in a trade. The fact that they could soon be relieved of a 6M/yr backup goalie makes the money angle on the Pronger trade even sillier, I think. (And for what its worth, I wouldn't trade Giguere yet anyways. I'd want to make sure Hiller wasn't a one hit wonder first, and give Giguere a chance to play and get his trade value back up to where it belongs.)

17 June 2009

Wing Killers: Chris Pronger

Posting over at the Cycle Like Sedins' ANA/DET miniblog this year, one of the things I did was examine Chris Pronger's reputation as a clutch performer against the Red Wings. These players are often called Wing-killers, and going into that series against the Ducks, Earl Sleek had been telling everyone who would listen that post-lockout, the story of the playoffs was either that Chris Pronger eliminates the Red Wings, or the Red Wings win the Stanley Cup. (Gee, that worked out well, huh?) I remembered Pronger's contributions on the 2006 Oilers and 2007 Ducks in both Detroit eliminations, but I also remembered St. Louis consistently coming up short against the Wings for several years in the late 90's and early 00's. I was curious to see if his dominance of the Wings was only particular to those two post-lockout teams or if there were signs of that dominance on those Blues teams as well.

My basic conclusion last time was that since he arrived as one of the top defensemen in the NHL, Pronger has been an absolute beast against the Wings. In 2000, Chris Pronger won the Hart and Norris trophies in the same year. That's another way of saying "this guy is one of the best in the game". Going from that point on in his career against the Wings, he posted some great numbers: 15 GP, 2-13-15 (1.0ppg), +9, 34 PIM, and those are just the easy counting numbers. There is no way to count how many times he frustrated the Wings in trying to mount an attack in his end of the ice.

If you compare this to some of the numbers I've taken a look at for points per game production in the playoffs, that 1.0 ppg for Pronger puts him in the top 25 of forwards, and in the top 2 for defensemen. I think its safe to say that contribution on that level qualifies Chris Pronger as a real Wing Killer. But since I made that post, Pronger has completed another series against the Wings, so lets add that data in, and see if his performance this year was in line with his past performances.

First, let's count off each battle:


1995-96 - 2nd round (1) Detroit vs (5) St. Louis, Detroit wins in 7

1996-97 - 1st round (3) Detroit vs (6) St. Louis, Detroit wins in 6

1997-98 - 2nd round (3) Detroit vs (4) St. Louis, Detroit wins in 6

2001-02 - 2nd round (1) Detroit vs (4) St. Louis, Detroit wins in 5

2005-06 - 1st round (1) Detroit vs (8) Edmonton, Edmonton wins in 6

2006-07 - 3rd round (1) Detroit vs (2) Anaheim, Anaheim wins in 6

2008-09 - 2nd round (2) Detroit vs (8) Anaheim, Detroit wins in 7

(Career record: 2-5 in series versus Detroit, 18-23 in games he has played against Detroit in the playoffs)


Now, we'll break it down into the individual game performances:


1995-96 2nd round (1) Detroit vs (5) St. Louis, Detroit wins in 7

G1: 0G 1A -1 4 shot 0 PIM

G2: 0G 1A -3 2 shot 4 PIM

G3: 0G 1A even 0 shot 2 PIM

G4: 0G 0A even 1 shot 0 PIM

G5: 0G 0A +1 1 shot 0 PIM

G6: 0G 0A even 3 shot 0 PIM

G7: 0G 0A even 0 shot 0 PIM

TOTAL: 0G 3A -3 11 shots 6 PIM


1996-97 1st round (3) Detroit vs (6) St. Louis, Detroit wins in 6

Unfortunately, it seems that box scores from the 1997 playoffs are not available. However, because the Blues lost to the Wings in the first round, we can get Pronger's total numbers for the series from his playoff numbers.

TOTAL: 1G 1A even 19 shots 22 PIM


1997-98 2nd round (3) Detroit vs (4) St. Louis, Detroit wins in 6

G1: 0G 1A +1 1 shot 2 PIM

G2: 0G 1A -1 1 shot 4 PIM

G3: 0G 1A -1 2 shot 2 PIM

G4: 0G 0A +1 3 shots 2 PIM

G5: 0G 0A even 1 shot 6 PIM

G6: 0G 1A -2 4 shot 0 PIM

TOTAL: 0G 4A -2 12 shots 16 PIM


2001-02 2nd round (1) Detroit vs (4) St. Louis, Detroit wins in 5

G1: 0G 0A even 3 shots 16 PIM (misconduct)

G2: 0G 1A +1 4 shot 0 PIM

G3: 0G 3A +2 1 shot 0 PIM

G4: 0G 1A even 1 shot 2 PIM (Torn ACL for trying to kill a one-legged Yzerman)

G5: DID NOT PLAY (Torn ACL)

TOTAL: 0G 5A +3 9 shots 18 PIM (Plus a torn ACL)


2005-06 1st round (1) Detroit vs (8) Edmonton, Edmonton wins in 6

G1: 1G 0A -2 2 shot 0 PIM

G2: 1G 1A +4 6 shot 0 PIM

G3: 0G 1A +1 1 shot 0 PIM

G4: 0G 0A even 4 shot 0 PIM

G5: 0G 3A even 0 shot 0 PIM

G6: 0G 0A +1 0 shot 4 PIM

TOTAL: 2G 5A +4 13 shots 4 PIM


2006-07 3rd round (1) Detroit vs (2) Anaheim, Anaheim wins in 6

G1: 0G 0A even 5 shot 0 PIM

G2: 0G 1A +1 5 shot 4 PIM

G3: 0G 0A even 3 shot 4 PIM (Niedermayer blamed for another 15 PIM)

G4: DID NOT PLAY (Suspended)

G5: 0G 1A even 3 shot 4 PIM

G6: 0G 1A +1 2 shot 0 PIM

TOTAL: 0G 3A +2 18 shots 12 PIM (Plus a suspension and should've had another 15 PIM)


2008-09 2nd round (2) Detroit vs (8) Anaheim, Detroit wins in 7

G1: 0G 2A -1 1 shot 0 PIM

G2: 1G 0A even 5 shot 0 PIM

G3: 0G 1A even 2 shot 4 PIM

G4: 0G 1A -1 2 shot 2 PIM

G5: 0G 0A -1 2 shot 0 PIM

G6: 0G 0A +1 2 shot 0 PIM

G7: 0G 1A even 2 shot 0 PIM

TOTAL: 1G 5A -2 16 shots 6 PIM


CAREER TOTAL: 41GP 4G-26A-30P +2 98SOG 84PIM


Just a quick glance at these series illustrates that Pronger did much better when he was not in St. Louis, and that especially his early years on the Blues, before he established himself as a top defenseman in the NHL, dragged his career averages down a lot. With that in mind, I did a split for Pronger based on his STL teams versus his non-STL teams. Updated to include 2008-09, this split looks like so:

Pronger (STL): 23 GP / 1G 13A 14P (0.61ppg) / -2 / 62 PIM (2.70 PIM/game)

Pronger (EDM/ANA): 18 GP / 3G 13A 16P (0.89ppg) / +4 / 22 PIM (1.22 PIM/game)

This clearly shows us a pretty big difference in performance between what Pronger did against the Wings in St. Louis versus what he did in Anaheim and Edmonton, where his only series wins against Detroit occurred. However, the majority of Pronger’s STL/DET matchups happened in three consecutive years, from 1996-98, when he was definitely a rising star, but had not completely taken the reins from Al MacInnis as top dog on the St. Louis blue line. Also, St. Louis’ peak years as a team came from a period of time from about 1999-2002, indicating that the team around Pronger got better after those three straight losses to the Wings. This peak for the team coincided with Pronger’s arrival as one of the top defensemen in the league. A split of pre-Norris Pronger vs post-Norris Pronger might give us a better idea of what sort of performances Pronger has offered since fully realizing his potential.

Pronger (1996-98): 19 GP / 1G 8A 9P (0.47ppg) / -5 / 44 PIM (2.32 PIM/game)

Pronger (2002-09): 22 GP / 3G 18A 21P (0.95ppg) / +7 / 40 PIM (1.82 PIM/game)

That’s a pretty remarkable difference right there. Twice as many ppg, putting Pronger on a pace that would keep him among the top forwards in the league, and at the top of the heap for defensemen. Its hard to put together some of his non-counting numbers here, because those numbers have only recently started to be tracked, but from my own observations, I think its pretty safe to say that the non-counting end of his game (specifically keeping the Wings out of his net, and preferably putting them on the ground) improved just as much through these splits. One of the best examples of this is the fact that in the 2007 series win by Anaheim, Pronger was only on the ice for one goal against in 5 games, that being a short handed goal. That, despite being on the ice for 156:42 (22:34 of which was shorthanded) in the 5 games of that series he appeared in. That’s not just impressive, its downright Herculean.

The only weakness that has been evident in Pronger’s play is his propensity for taking penalties, but even much of that has diminished with time and experience. In his days in STL, Pronger was averaging well over a single minor penalty a game. Considering that he is such a key penalty killer for his teams, his being in the box becomeseven worse, because the team goes shorthanded, and does so without one of the best penalty killers in the league. In his last three series against the Wings, from 2006-09, he’s averaging a little over half a minor penalty per game. In this same time period, he is also playing very close to half the game on the ice, so the fact that his PIMs have come down as his ice time goes up makes him a more and more reliable workhorse for his teams.

I always knew Pronger was a good player against the Wings, but seeing the magnitude of his contributions and seeing them actually quantified, frankly, has given me a whole new level of respect for the guy. I still hate his guts, but I’ve got to give him props for being able to play on such a level against one of the perennially great teams in Detroit.

Wing Killers is a feature I would like to continue, by taking a look at some other key players who have developed a reputation for being able to put the boots to the Wings. Adam Deadmarsh is one who comes to mind. If you have any other requests or suggestions, be sure to let me know.